The Great Sherdog Debate: Liddell vs. Horn
Sherdog.com’s crack(ed) team of Mike Sloan and Greg Savage are at
it again for another “Great Sherdog Debate.” Who wins Saturday’s
long-awaited rematch between UFC light heavyweight champion
Chuck Liddell (Pictures) and challenger Jeremy Horn (Pictures)?
Sloan has his hefty Sherdog.com paycheck on the champ while Savage puts already-ruined rep on the challenger. Read more to find out why.
Sloan: Aaahhh. It sure is good to kick my boss’s ass in a
heated debate. As everyone on the planet will recall, our
Editor-in-Chief Josh Gross tried his best to make me look like an
imbecile by trying to out-argue me about how Evan Tanner (Pictures) will smash Rich Franklin (Pictures).
Of course, my prediction skills paid dividends as not only did Franklin beat the tar out of Tanner, Mr. Gross ran out of the arena in tears (Thanks Magic 8 Ball!). It took him weeks to call me and congratulate me on my victory, something Greg Savage will assuredly do in the days following UFC 54 this Saturday.
That’s right: my magnificent one-fight debate-winning streak will not come to a crashing halt because I know for certain that Chuck Liddell (Pictures) will hand Jeremy Horn (Pictures) another defeat. Liddell will be able to avenge his loss from UFC 19, just like he did against Randy Couture (Pictures) at UFC 52. Like me, Liddell is on a hot streak that won’t end anytime soon.
Greg, there really is no reason to even debate me on this because the writing is already on the wall with this fight, which is the main event this Saturday night. Liddell will win by knockout, something that has never happened to Horn. Trust me on this: the only thing we should be debating here is exactly when and how Liddell will score the knockout.
What do you think? And don’t even tell me you believe lightning will strike twice.
Savage: You better be careful there Michael, you are going to throw your shoulder out there patting yourself on the back like that. Don’t let your one measly little prediction get your head all swelled up. Remember I have dominated you in past Sherdog debates (my only misstep coming when the judges handed down that gift decision for Tito Ortiz (Pictures) against my boy Vitor Belfort (Pictures)) and I plan on keeping my winning streak intact.
I am surprised to hear you parroting the belief that it was a fluke when Jeremy beat “The Iceman” back in 1999. Next thing you know, you will be listening to the hype that Jeremy is too small.
The fact of the matter is Jeremy Horn (Pictures) has always been an underrated fighter. Since his loss to Elvis Sinosic at UFC 30 four-and-a-half years ago, he has fought 35 times and only tasted defeat on three occasions.
Who beat him you might ask? Well Ricardo Arona (Pictures) scored a decision win in Rings, Babalu Sobral defeated him to win the IFC Global Domination Tournament, and Anderson Silva (Pictures) decisioned him in Korea at the Gladiator FC after Horn sustained an injury to his groin.
Let’s see, Ricardo Arona (Pictures) and Babalu are both fighters with considerable skill when it comes to nullifying their opponent’s game plans by slowing the pace to a grinding halt. This is not a skill Mr. Liddell is in possession of and he will be hard pressed to dictate much of anything in this match.
Sorry kid, unless your guy can do something none of the 100 plus fighters who have stepped into the arena with Jeremy Horn (Pictures) in the past have been able to do — that is knock him out — his championship reign will be coming to an end, just like your brief debate winning streak.
Sloan: Since when have I been parroting that their first encounter was a fluke? I don’t recall ever writing/saying that. I think you’ve eaten too many Slim Jims, Macho Man, because that first fight was no fluke and I never said such malarkey. Also, I have always been blowing the trumpets about how underrated Horn is, so again you are making very little sense.
But then again, is he underrated? Let’s look a bit closer and compare the two, shall we?
True, Horn has won 35 times since the Sinosic fight, but let’s go back to the day after the first Liddell fight and ask this: who exactly has Jeremy beaten? Let’s see … a quick gander through our FightFinder reveals that “Gumby” has toppled such world beaters as Jammy Daniels, Kris Rotharmel, Kyle Seals, Scott Ventimiglia, John Marsh and Iouri Bekichev, to name a few. Those guys aren’t exactly a Murderers’ Row of Wanderlei, “Cro Cop” or even Rickson.
Since that win, the biggest names on his resume under the ‘W’ column came against Eugene Jackson (yawn), Gilbert Yvel (Pictures) (ahem …), Forrest Griffin (Pictures) and David Loiseau (Pictures). I won’t even include guys like Aaron Brink or the usual PRIDE cans, but out of those four blokes, who exactly is a world killer? Maybe “The Crow.” We both know the limits of Jackson and Yvel and Forrest is still an unproven fighter.
Who has Liddell fought? Well, he actually knocked out Sobral (Horn lost to him), Kevin Randleman (Pictures) (KO of former heavyweight champ), Guy Mezger (KO), Murilo Bustamante (Pictures) (a future champ), Vitor Belfort (Pictures) (future champ), Vernon White (Pictures) (via TKO while Horn won a decision), Randy Couture (Pictures) (KO of former two-weight class champ while Horn lost to him) and Tito Ortiz (Pictures) (KO of former champ).
So, while you can babble on and on about how he’s only lost thrice while fighting so many times, who cares about quantity when Horn’s fights and wins are virtually meaningless? Just look at most of the guys that Horn has toppled along the way. I honestly think that the 1989 Dallas Cowboys had more victories.
Let’s see … several dozen base hits and walks against Steve Trout or a dozen home runs off of Nolan Ryan … hmm. Do you really want to continue this debate? Seriously quit while you are way behind to save some face. Do what Gross should have done.
Savage: So first you say you have been blowing the trumpets about how underrated Jeremy Horn (Pictures) is as a fighter and then you qualify that statement by making a complete 180, claiming that Horn is overrated because he has not fought all the big name guys Liddell has?
How in the hell does that work? Can I give it a try?
*in my Mike Sloan voice*
“Chuck Liddell (Pictures) is a devastating striker who throws nothing but telegraphed haymakers.”
Wow this is fun. I like taking both sides of an argument. Even when I lose, I win.
Is this how you got past Gross last time?
Anyway, back to reality and coherent arguments.
How about you come up with a scenario where Chuck Liddell (Pictures) beats Jeremy Horn (Pictures) that does not include a one-punch knockout? That’s right. You can’t.
Jeremy Horn (Pictures) can win this fight in any number of ways after he survives Chuck’s initial outburst. As soon as “The Iceman” starts breathing hard — second round is my guess — it will be all Horn. His superior conditioning and better all-around game will carry him to the UFC light heavyweight title.
Horn is in the best shape of his life and that will be the deciding factor in this bout. Sure Chuck may be a little bigger and may have fought some better competition but I will venture a guess that he did not have the kind of training camp, with the number of high-caliber fighters, Jeremy Horn (Pictures) just went through. Preparation is not something Horn has focused on in the past and I think come Saturday night we will see a level of performance that will leave MMA fans in awe.
After all the years of hearing the Miletich guys pumping up Horn — guys like Matt Hughes (Pictures), Jens Pulver (Pictures), Tim Sylvia (Pictures), et al — I know how good he truly is. After Saturday night the secret will be out and every one is going to see what a monster Jeremy Horn (Pictures) is.
Sloan: Again, Greg, you are not actually reading and soaking up what I wrote. Just because I explain truth behind Horn’s career doesn’t mean that I think he’s overrated. I have always said for years that he is underrated and that he needs to get welcomed into the bigger shows to fight some real fighters, not dug up cadavers. He was always overlooked mostly because he fights every other Saturday, usually in the back parking lot of a Sav-On.
Anyway, a one-punch knockout is not the only scenario of a Liddell win. He has won decisions before (Bustamante, Belfort) and looked sensational all the way through. In fact, he pulled out the win late in the final round against Belfort.
Horn’s only chance to win this fight, aside from the possibility of Chuck wearing bunny slippers on his feet and a Scrooge McDuck rubber mask on his face is if Horn can somehow bring him down and keep him there. Horn will have to do that after he brings the fight to him on his feet. And have you seen Horn on his feet that much? I remember vividly Horn trying to out-box Vernon White (Pictures) a while back and getting it taken to him. If White was tearing him up, what would Chuck do?
Another thing, once Horn realizes that he can’t hang with Chuck’s feet and fists, provided he is still conscious, he’ll try to shoot for a takedown. Sorry, not that easy. Remember Tito’s feeble attempts? Ha ha ha.
And one more thing: Horn, at UFC 42, had never heard of Marshall Faulk when they were introduced. What kind of man has no idea who one of the most popular players in the NFL is? A man who will be iced by Liddell, that’s who.
So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. Or do you chew on hay stalks? Either way, I think it’ll be you who will be buying the rounds at Liddell’s after party Saturday night, watching Chuck sitting there with his trusty light heavyweight title belt still around his waist.
Savage: Chuck looked good in his decision wins?
Man, did you even watch the Bustamante or Suloev fights? Yes he did pull out a win against Vitor Belfort (Pictures) but I wouldn’t call that one of his best performances.
I will go on the record right now: If Chuck Liddell (Pictures) wins this fight by decision I will ask him to punch me as hard as he can in the arm just like that genius on Inked.
Seriously, do you really think he can win a decision? Liddell has never gone past three rounds and is not known to have the best cardio. As soon as the needle on his gas tank hits E it will be curtains for Chack.
Don’t get me wrong, if Horn gets careless in the stand-up he could find himself staring up into the Grand Garden rafters. He knows this and will push the pace early in hopes of tiring Liddell out. As long as he gets this past the second round Jeremy Horn (Pictures) will be taking UFC gold back to Salt Lake City.
Hey Gross, while you’re at it, you might as well just update my GSD record to 3-1. This thing is a lock. And don’t worry Mikey, maybe Gross will do this with you next time so you will have a chance.
GSD career totals:
Greg Savage: 2-1
Mike Sloan: 2-2
Josh Gross (ret.): 0-1
Sloan has his hefty Sherdog.com paycheck on the champ while Savage puts already-ruined rep on the challenger. Read more to find out why.
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Of course, my prediction skills paid dividends as not only did Franklin beat the tar out of Tanner, Mr. Gross ran out of the arena in tears (Thanks Magic 8 Ball!). It took him weeks to call me and congratulate me on my victory, something Greg Savage will assuredly do in the days following UFC 54 this Saturday.
(Editor’s Note: I was robbed.)
That’s right: my magnificent one-fight debate-winning streak will not come to a crashing halt because I know for certain that Chuck Liddell (Pictures) will hand Jeremy Horn (Pictures) another defeat. Liddell will be able to avenge his loss from UFC 19, just like he did against Randy Couture (Pictures) at UFC 52. Like me, Liddell is on a hot streak that won’t end anytime soon.
Greg, there really is no reason to even debate me on this because the writing is already on the wall with this fight, which is the main event this Saturday night. Liddell will win by knockout, something that has never happened to Horn. Trust me on this: the only thing we should be debating here is exactly when and how Liddell will score the knockout.
What do you think? And don’t even tell me you believe lightning will strike twice.
Savage: You better be careful there Michael, you are going to throw your shoulder out there patting yourself on the back like that. Don’t let your one measly little prediction get your head all swelled up. Remember I have dominated you in past Sherdog debates (my only misstep coming when the judges handed down that gift decision for Tito Ortiz (Pictures) against my boy Vitor Belfort (Pictures)) and I plan on keeping my winning streak intact.
I am surprised to hear you parroting the belief that it was a fluke when Jeremy beat “The Iceman” back in 1999. Next thing you know, you will be listening to the hype that Jeremy is too small.
The fact of the matter is Jeremy Horn (Pictures) has always been an underrated fighter. Since his loss to Elvis Sinosic at UFC 30 four-and-a-half years ago, he has fought 35 times and only tasted defeat on three occasions.
Who beat him you might ask? Well Ricardo Arona (Pictures) scored a decision win in Rings, Babalu Sobral defeated him to win the IFC Global Domination Tournament, and Anderson Silva (Pictures) decisioned him in Korea at the Gladiator FC after Horn sustained an injury to his groin.
Let’s see, Ricardo Arona (Pictures) and Babalu are both fighters with considerable skill when it comes to nullifying their opponent’s game plans by slowing the pace to a grinding halt. This is not a skill Mr. Liddell is in possession of and he will be hard pressed to dictate much of anything in this match.
Sorry kid, unless your guy can do something none of the 100 plus fighters who have stepped into the arena with Jeremy Horn (Pictures) in the past have been able to do — that is knock him out — his championship reign will be coming to an end, just like your brief debate winning streak.
Sloan: Since when have I been parroting that their first encounter was a fluke? I don’t recall ever writing/saying that. I think you’ve eaten too many Slim Jims, Macho Man, because that first fight was no fluke and I never said such malarkey. Also, I have always been blowing the trumpets about how underrated Horn is, so again you are making very little sense.
But then again, is he underrated? Let’s look a bit closer and compare the two, shall we?
True, Horn has won 35 times since the Sinosic fight, but let’s go back to the day after the first Liddell fight and ask this: who exactly has Jeremy beaten? Let’s see … a quick gander through our FightFinder reveals that “Gumby” has toppled such world beaters as Jammy Daniels, Kris Rotharmel, Kyle Seals, Scott Ventimiglia, John Marsh and Iouri Bekichev, to name a few. Those guys aren’t exactly a Murderers’ Row of Wanderlei, “Cro Cop” or even Rickson.
Since that win, the biggest names on his resume under the ‘W’ column came against Eugene Jackson (yawn), Gilbert Yvel (Pictures) (ahem …), Forrest Griffin (Pictures) and David Loiseau (Pictures). I won’t even include guys like Aaron Brink or the usual PRIDE cans, but out of those four blokes, who exactly is a world killer? Maybe “The Crow.” We both know the limits of Jackson and Yvel and Forrest is still an unproven fighter.
Who has Liddell fought? Well, he actually knocked out Sobral (Horn lost to him), Kevin Randleman (Pictures) (KO of former heavyweight champ), Guy Mezger (KO), Murilo Bustamante (Pictures) (a future champ), Vitor Belfort (Pictures) (future champ), Vernon White (Pictures) (via TKO while Horn won a decision), Randy Couture (Pictures) (KO of former two-weight class champ while Horn lost to him) and Tito Ortiz (Pictures) (KO of former champ).
So, while you can babble on and on about how he’s only lost thrice while fighting so many times, who cares about quantity when Horn’s fights and wins are virtually meaningless? Just look at most of the guys that Horn has toppled along the way. I honestly think that the 1989 Dallas Cowboys had more victories.
Let’s see … several dozen base hits and walks against Steve Trout or a dozen home runs off of Nolan Ryan … hmm. Do you really want to continue this debate? Seriously quit while you are way behind to save some face. Do what Gross should have done.
Savage: So first you say you have been blowing the trumpets about how underrated Jeremy Horn (Pictures) is as a fighter and then you qualify that statement by making a complete 180, claiming that Horn is overrated because he has not fought all the big name guys Liddell has?
How in the hell does that work? Can I give it a try?
*in my Mike Sloan voice*
“Chuck Liddell (Pictures) is a devastating striker who throws nothing but telegraphed haymakers.”
Wow this is fun. I like taking both sides of an argument. Even when I lose, I win.
Is this how you got past Gross last time?
Anyway, back to reality and coherent arguments.
How about you come up with a scenario where Chuck Liddell (Pictures) beats Jeremy Horn (Pictures) that does not include a one-punch knockout? That’s right. You can’t.
Jeremy Horn (Pictures) can win this fight in any number of ways after he survives Chuck’s initial outburst. As soon as “The Iceman” starts breathing hard — second round is my guess — it will be all Horn. His superior conditioning and better all-around game will carry him to the UFC light heavyweight title.
Horn is in the best shape of his life and that will be the deciding factor in this bout. Sure Chuck may be a little bigger and may have fought some better competition but I will venture a guess that he did not have the kind of training camp, with the number of high-caliber fighters, Jeremy Horn (Pictures) just went through. Preparation is not something Horn has focused on in the past and I think come Saturday night we will see a level of performance that will leave MMA fans in awe.
After all the years of hearing the Miletich guys pumping up Horn — guys like Matt Hughes (Pictures), Jens Pulver (Pictures), Tim Sylvia (Pictures), et al — I know how good he truly is. After Saturday night the secret will be out and every one is going to see what a monster Jeremy Horn (Pictures) is.
Sloan: Again, Greg, you are not actually reading and soaking up what I wrote. Just because I explain truth behind Horn’s career doesn’t mean that I think he’s overrated. I have always said for years that he is underrated and that he needs to get welcomed into the bigger shows to fight some real fighters, not dug up cadavers. He was always overlooked mostly because he fights every other Saturday, usually in the back parking lot of a Sav-On.
Anyway, a one-punch knockout is not the only scenario of a Liddell win. He has won decisions before (Bustamante, Belfort) and looked sensational all the way through. In fact, he pulled out the win late in the final round against Belfort.
Horn’s only chance to win this fight, aside from the possibility of Chuck wearing bunny slippers on his feet and a Scrooge McDuck rubber mask on his face is if Horn can somehow bring him down and keep him there. Horn will have to do that after he brings the fight to him on his feet. And have you seen Horn on his feet that much? I remember vividly Horn trying to out-box Vernon White (Pictures) a while back and getting it taken to him. If White was tearing him up, what would Chuck do?
Another thing, once Horn realizes that he can’t hang with Chuck’s feet and fists, provided he is still conscious, he’ll try to shoot for a takedown. Sorry, not that easy. Remember Tito’s feeble attempts? Ha ha ha.
And one more thing: Horn, at UFC 42, had never heard of Marshall Faulk when they were introduced. What kind of man has no idea who one of the most popular players in the NFL is? A man who will be iced by Liddell, that’s who.
So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. Or do you chew on hay stalks? Either way, I think it’ll be you who will be buying the rounds at Liddell’s after party Saturday night, watching Chuck sitting there with his trusty light heavyweight title belt still around his waist.
Savage: Chuck looked good in his decision wins?
Man, did you even watch the Bustamante or Suloev fights? Yes he did pull out a win against Vitor Belfort (Pictures) but I wouldn’t call that one of his best performances.
I will go on the record right now: If Chuck Liddell (Pictures) wins this fight by decision I will ask him to punch me as hard as he can in the arm just like that genius on Inked.
Seriously, do you really think he can win a decision? Liddell has never gone past three rounds and is not known to have the best cardio. As soon as the needle on his gas tank hits E it will be curtains for Chack.
Don’t get me wrong, if Horn gets careless in the stand-up he could find himself staring up into the Grand Garden rafters. He knows this and will push the pace early in hopes of tiring Liddell out. As long as he gets this past the second round Jeremy Horn (Pictures) will be taking UFC gold back to Salt Lake City.
Hey Gross, while you’re at it, you might as well just update my GSD record to 3-1. This thing is a lock. And don’t worry Mikey, maybe Gross will do this with you next time so you will have a chance.
GSD career totals:
Greg Savage: 2-1
Mike Sloan: 2-2
Josh Gross (ret.): 0-1
